Sell everything: Chat from 3/30/09

This week's chat... hit the jump (if I set up a jump right)

[15:57] Sabrina Loudwater: next week my avatar definitely won't have a protruding belly!
[15:58] Kathereene Kahanamoku: bhodi, I forgot how to sit again
[15:58] Howl Yifu: yes, got to keep the avatar up to the real - you should have a baby to accompany your avatar next week

[15:58] Lindsey Ireman: right click and hit sit here
[15:58] Bhodi Silverman: Kathereene, search "sit" in your inventory, then when you find it, clikc play in world.
[15:58] Lindsey Ireman: do you have to purchase a baby with secondlife currency? hehe
[15:58] Howl Yifu: ok brb two minutes then start
[15:59] Kathereene Kahanamoku: that did not do what i thought
[16:00] Howl Yifu: alright.
[16:00] Howl Yifu: It's one am where i am, so if i start to lose it you know the reason. (just did the time change this weekend)
[16:00] Lindsey Ireman: yikes
[16:00] Howl Yifu: we're talking today about _sound unbound_, at least the first half or so.
[16:01] Howl Yifu: plus we have instigation from tony and martine, correct?
[16:01] DeSelby Zarco: yep
[16:01] MRF Hammerthall: is Martine my french doppelganger?
[16:01] Howl Yifu: oui, n'cest pas
[16:01] Howl Yifu: and soundscapes? whom?
[16:02] Lindsey Ireman: Well Sarah and i will be next week for the soundscape
[16:02] DeSelby Zarco: Same with sugarplum, podless and I
[16:02] Slothrop Charlesworth: and Rachel and I next week as well
[16:03] MRF Hammerthall: Liz and I too
[16:03] Liz Finistair: Martina (or Martine, either one) and I will be next week
[16:03] Howl Yifu: ok, so all next week?
[16:03] DeSelby Zarco: seems like it!
[16:03] Howl Yifu: good enough.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: a few things then
[16:04] Howl Yifu: second half of sound unbound next week, plus soundscapes
[16:04] Howl Yifu: no instigation next week.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: oh, wait,
[16:04] Howl Yifu: jason and ??
[16:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: rebecca and I are
[16:04] Howl Yifu: yup, ok.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: then time off to work on essays, post abstracts.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: that's about it in terms of housekeeping
[16:05] Howl Yifu: frraming sound unbound:
[16:05] Howl Yifu: we can take it any direction, especially since as an essay collection we don't expect it to have the kind of structural
[16:06] Howl Yifu: claims that the other texts we've read can claim
[16:06] Howl Yifu: we can grab individual essays as we want.
[16:06] DeSelby Zarco: (for reference, here's my blog http://voiceinheadphones.blogspot.com/ )
[16:06] Howl Yifu: so -- tony - martina? do we go to tony's blog first?
[16:06] DeSelby Zarco: sure
[16:06] MRF Hammerthall: mine's http://bloggershewrote.blogspot.com and sure
[16:06] Howl Yifu: instructions there, or just read? tony...
[16:07] DeSelby Zarco: As a starting point, I think a good introduction to a few of the essays comes from a passage in Miller's first entry
[16:07] DeSelby Zarco: Miller writers, "We live in an era where quotation and sampling operate on such a deep level that the archaelogy of what can be called 'knowledge' floats in a murky realm between the real and the unreal" (11).
[16:08] DeSelby Zarco: I think we can either talk about how we feel about this, or I can ask questions
[16:08] Howl Yifu: either?
[16:08] Howl Yifu: tony ask a question?
[16:08] DeSelby Zarco: Well with that in mind, let's look at the Doctorow
[16:08] Howl Yifu: yes
[16:09] DeSelby Zarco: This is another of the sort of manifesto-type writings we've seen this semester, this one fervently demanding that we move forward and use the technology for what it can do
[16:10] DeSelby Zarco: and as such, person-to-person file sharing and other forms of digial copying is a good and necessary thing
[16:10] Howl Yifu: you call this the anti-metallica approach...
[16:10] DeSelby Zarco: exactly. Lars hates this
[16:10] Howl Yifu: and it raises the copyright issue...
[16:10] DeSelby Zarco: What do we think?
[16:11] DeSelby Zarco: the "adapt or move over" method
[16:11] Howl Yifu: are metallica just old fuddy duddies
[16:11] Slothrop Charlesworth: I guess it comes down to whether or not one believes in sound as property, i.e. something that can be owned
[16:11] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, not only is the business model outdated, it's been shown that groups like metallica are suing those who're more apt to also purchase their music
[16:11] Howl Yifu: hm, so that's an initial question: can we treat it like langauge?
[16:12] Slothrop Charlesworth: I think we tend not to
[16:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: My blog post was about that kindof. I don't think so, unless its our voices
[16:13] Howl Yifu: katherine - you don't thinkso...? that sound is copytrihtable??
[16:14] DeSelby Zarco: while the issue is related to copyright, i dont think this is really what doctorow is getting at (lethem seemed more about taht)
[16:14] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I don't think we can own it, but I realize that people do through copyright
[16:14] Lindsey Ireman: it seems to me, also, that the issue isn't necessarily the theft of others sound, but the speedand amount of themft computer downloading has made possible
[16:14] Minksy Maven: but we can write notes down for some sounds, like melodies to music. i'd say that kind of notation is a langauge, and people definitely get their melodies copyrighted.
[16:14] Liz Finistair: But when it comes to us through a particular medium, doesn't work in kind of the same way as text (which is copyrightable)?
[16:14] Liz Finistair: does it work *
[16:14] Howl Yifu: tony: say more? what is cory d after?
[16:15] DeSelby Zarco: that the copyright is no longer protectable--that your money needs to come from elsewhere if you want to produce art in a medium that can be made digital
[16:15] Howl Yifu: - the language of "business model"
[16:15] Bhodi Silverman nods and agrees with tony.
[16:15] Kathereene Kahanamoku: good. people maybe shouldn't be producing art for the money
[16:16] Layla Afterthought: this is where the idea of art as gift comes in?
[16:16] Howl Yifu: so, this defers the binary of copyright/not, instead asks what new mode of creating for an audience
[16:16] DeSelby Zarco: well that's true, but then, as Jefferson said somewhere in this book, there needs to be a LITTLE incentive to produce it, it can still be business
[16:16] Freebyrd Sugarplum: doesn't lethem draw a pretty definite line on this?
[16:17] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, Jefferson, that was in the Lethem essay
[16:17] Howl Yifu: well, gift is interesting here. there's never an absolute gift, alwasy differently situated
[16:17] Liz Finistair: Yeah, but there's still the question of use, which is a major part of the foundation of consumer culture
[16:17] Layla Afterthought: (only somewhat related: in Europe, a lot of pop music artists make more money from ringtone sales that album sales. Gross!)
[16:17] Howl Yifu: ringtones: perhasp a great business model
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman: haha layla I was going to suggest the new ringtone money scheme
[16:17] DeSelby Zarco: (but sites like Mobile17 in the US will do that for free!)
[16:18] Layla Afterthought: Haha!
[16:18] Lindsey Ireman: but anyone with a ltitle savvy can figure out how to bypass the need to pay for these
[16:18] Layla Afterthought: ... or for anything
[16:18] Liz Finistair: I make ringtones for free from my pc
[16:18] Howl Yifu: deselby, yes interesting how uneven these developments are. "The future is here but unevenly distributed." William gibson
[16:18] Liz Finistair: but i still had to pay for the phone, the software to edit music, and the wire to hook up my phone
[16:18] Lindsey Ireman: me too
[16:18] Liz Finistair: no matter what, it's still all entrenched in the business model
[16:18] Layla Afterthought: Yep, so they keep you paying.
[16:18] Howl Yifu: So, one question is the absolute copyright/anarchy
[16:18] DeSelby Zarco: there IS a markey, it's undeniable
[16:19] DeSelby Zarco: market.
[16:19] Kathereene Kahanamoku: What is that organization that sues musicians for giving away their music for free?
[16:19] Layla Afterthought: undis-niable?
[16:19] Howl Yifu: the other is markets and audiences, variesteis of freedom and control
[16:19] Howl Yifu: un-disney-isable
[16:19] Layla Afterthought: Hehe, yeah.
[16:19] Layla Afterthought: I liked that one.
[16:19] Bhodi Silverman writes that word down.
[16:19] Liz Finistair: I don't think it's possible to boil it down into a binary like that. But maybe that's the outdated business model?
[16:20] Howl Yifu: well, i think there are different discourses of creativity floating around
[16:20] Howl Yifu: "We live in an era where quotation and sampling operate on such a deep level that the archaelogy of what can be called 'knowledge' floats in a murky realm between the real and the unreal" (11).
[16:20] Howl Yifu: i think tony was right to quote this - wonder what to make of it?
[16:21] Layla Afterthought: Talking about ringtones and still having to pay for the phone and the software makes me thing the whole Dj and sampling thing, about how everything should be "free" to use, is only free on the surface.
[16:21] Slothrop Charlesworth: I follow it through until the "real and unreal" part. Not sure what to make of it
[16:21] DeSelby Zarco: its the moving away from a tangible thing
[16:21] Layla Afterthought: We're only made to believe things are free?
[16:21] Howl Yifu: archeology of knowledge: foucault's key theoretical book
[16:22] Howl Yifu: argues that knowledge as statements can be tied to specific discourse formations,
[16:22] Howl Yifu: so at a given time a given set of statement are possible, e.g. the statement that "i am an author"
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: but speaking of discourses.... can any sound really be you?
[16:23] Howl Yifu: it seems to me that miller is here suggesting that knowledge is floating/quoting including the knowledge of that knowledge
[16:23] Howl Yifu: layla: good question.
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: I forget which essay it was... but at some point I disagreed with the nothing that noone "owns" language, or pieces of it.
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: Not everyone is "allowed" to say anything.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: -- that's a quote from burroughs found in lethem
[16:24] Layla Afterthought: ... or at least, not everyone will be taken seriously.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: should we talk about lethm?
[16:24] Howl Yifu: does no one own language?
[16:24] Layla Afterthought: I liked Lethem a lot!
[16:24] Freebyrd Sugarplum: me, too
[16:24] Liz Finistair: That's true, and that gets into a whole different kind of ownership--capital versus social control
[16:24] beth Wasp: but previous knowledge systems (statements) made possible our current "real vs. unreal" dilemma---it's not entirely new---it's just reinvented by our current technologies as they challenge materiality
[16:25] Howl Yifu: well, when burroughs says no one owns language (actually, it's burroughs quoting gysin being quoted in lethem) he is thinking of systems of power
[16:25] Howl Yifu: and control
[16:25] MoBecca Podless: lethem had interesting points--but was vague on where copyrighting should end and begin. he said, used my work in an interesting new way, but dont take too much...
[16:25] Layla Afterthought: But systems of power are kind of exactly the realms in which people DO own language, aren't they?
[16:25] Howl Yifu: -- he wants to address layla's question/rejoinder that some people can't speak
[16:26] Layla Afterthought: It seemed more like a "no one SHOULD own language" type of thought.
[16:26] Howl Yifu: mobecca>> yes, I agree. what do others think? does lethem supply a good answer on what we should do?
[16:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I thought he was more specific maybe than rebecca did
[16:27] DeSelby Zarco: I'm not sure--he's all proud of his "plagiarizing" but then he cites everything
[16:27] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yeah.
[16:27] Freebyrd Sugarplum: he seemed to propose some sort of alternative to, what did liz call it? a binary system?
[16:27] Lindsey Ireman: and then gibson plagairizes him...but doesnt cite
[16:27] Liz Finistair: I think Lethem passes over the idea of use and use value a little too much. He talks about second use and gifts, but a lot of it assumes an element of honesty in plagiarism that isn't always present
[16:27] Howl Yifu: a number of you noted the rhetorical structure of his essay
[16:27] Howl Yifu: no lethem is citing gibson
[16:28] Lindsey Ireman: oooh sorry must have reversed it in my head when I read them.
[16:28] MoBecca Podless: bye, sandy...
[16:28] DeSelby Zarco: It's for the better.
[16:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: class dismissed!
[16:28] MoBecca Podless: lets get pizza.
[16:28] Liz Finistair: I think he also glossed over the fact that "free values" are tied up........oh my
[16:28] Bhodi Silverman laughs and goes downstairs for a glass of wine.
[16:28] Minksy Maven: i think he cited everything to show how plagiarizing is inevitable. even if we don't mean to plagiarize, we still pull from other sources all the time
[16:28] Bhodi Silverman: Oops.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: sorry. froze up there.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: lindsey - i think lethem is citing from gibson, not the other way round
[16:29] beth Wasp: ---or that nothing is really original---previous statements enable ours
[16:30] Lindsey Ireman: yeah. Sorry. I confused which way it went after a few days reading went by.
[16:30] MoBecca Podless: he was pointing out that plagairizing is inevitable and also good and creative, but the deliberateness of his writing seemed contrite. what would have really been lost if he hadn't pulled from gibson?
[16:30] Layla Afterthought: So.... is an artist really only as good as his archive?
[16:30] Howl Yifu: wirklich.
[16:31] Minksy Maven: perhaps only as good as he can assemble his archive
[16:31] DeSelby Zarco: Lethem notes that there is a necessity and a "delight" in plagiarizing... how come as a writer (and i know this is true for most artists I know) there's a total fear that your idea will have too clear influence
[16:31] Howl Yifu: mobecca makes an interesting point that lethem leaves us wiht an aesthetic problem
[16:31] Layla Afterthought: I was going to protet this first, but I suppose EVERYTHING an artist does stems from some sort of archive... and then it really does depend on how "good" it is.
[16:31] Howl Yifu: yes, delight.
[16:31] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, it reminds me of Lessig's Remix
[16:31] Howl Yifu: perhaps there's a need for a much mor extended study of the aesthetics of stealing?
[16:32] DeSelby Zarco: that'd be interesting
[16:32] Lindsey Ireman: or on the aesthetics of intellectual property
[16:32] MoBecca Podless: but that lethems point--its not stealing, but part of a/the creative process. but he did seems to simply steal.
[16:32] Howl Yifu: yes, i think so. for example, can we pin lethem down more on the kind of respect he wants in borrowing.
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: And to what extent intellectual property is tied to the original creator.
[16:33] Layla Afterthought: Does it really make sense to have copiright after the artist dies?
[16:33] Howl Yifu: mobecca:, and others, did you find the form of his essay contrived?
[16:33] DeSelby Zarco: I like this--respect in borrowing, but borrow away?
[16:33] Howl Yifu: yes, so then the question is how to elaborate respect?
[16:33] DeSelby Zarco: let it be gray? do what you think is good.
[16:34] Liz Finistair: I find the fact that permission to reprint his essay was necessary to be a little strange
[16:34] Howl Yifu: makes me think of how their used to be equity courts that paralleled courts of law and were based on notions of "fairness" rather than legal precedent
[16:34] DeSelby Zarco: let the reader/listener/viewer decide for him/herself
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: I suppose Lethem wishes our society valued respect over money.
[16:34] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree, zarco.
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: (I guess I do, too. Heh)
[16:34] Freebyrd Sugarplum: i guess it does seem a little (overly) optimistic
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Yep, sure does.
[16:35] Rachel Geraln: I really like Lessig's approach to this....and the fact that he just publishes his stuff on the internet
[16:35] Howl Yifu: and how of commoditize it, create a business model?
[16:35] Rachel Geraln: it isn't really optomistic or idealistic
[16:35] Liz Finistair: Ideally, the money issue is there to uphold the respect
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: Agreed, Liz.
[16:35] Lindsey Ireman: I know Barnes and nobel has also been interested lately in putting new York Times best sellers up online for free...for a month
[16:35] Howl Yifu: -- we need to come back to the power issue: this is fine is you hav acces to distribution or are able to say things, but what if you aren't?
[16:35] MoBecca Podless: artists used to have patrons, now they have copyright.
[16:35] Slothrop Charlesworth: business and art are so separated, I
[16:35] DeSelby Zarco: I recently stole an album--liked it, so I bought it.
[16:35] Lindsey Ireman: they have seen an increase in sale of those books as a result
[16:35] Slothrop Charlesworth: i'm not sure we could create that model
[16:35] DeSelby Zarco: (mirah's (a)spera, so good)
[16:36] Howl Yifu: sweet
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: DeSelby, I do that a lot, hehe.
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: I'm a big fan of musicians putting their stuff online for download, saying "pay what you think this is worth"
[16:37] Howl Yifu: well, we could as a group come up with the model for respect, since this would derive from the creative artists - the concern of all of us her in some way
[16:37] Howl Yifu: here
[16:38] DeSelby Zarco: I always live by a loose model--if I like something, give them money. I've never bought a Flaming Lips album (or maybe only one) but i instead go to a concert or two
[16:38] DeSelby Zarco: or if i steal one, by another
[16:38] DeSelby Zarco: buy
[16:38] Layla Afterthought: Yeah, what I like, I buy (to the extent that I can afford it)
[16:39] Howl Yifu: i'm thinking back to layla's earlier question of whether you're words are ever your own - how appropriate that is for this environment
[16:39] Minksy Maven: hmmmm, i never thought of going to concerts as payment in that way before, but it is a nice way of supporting an artist.....and most tickets cost more than a CD
[16:39] DeSelby Zarco: "i steal only what i can't afford (that's everyhting)" aladdin
[16:39] Amelia Mistwalker: hahaha deselby
[16:39] Lindsey Ireman: haha nice
[16:40] Liz Finistair: But what if the art's not worth anything to anyone? Why make it then?
[16:40] Howl Yifu: tony: so this is an economy of reputation, i.e. circulate works and let them gather repetutation and interest and commodification will follow
[16:40] Rachel Geraln: but tickest cost more because you are supporting a venue, a stage crew, etc
[16:40] Rachel Geraln: so how much of that does an actual artist see?
[16:40] DeSelby Zarco: yeah i think so! but there are other ways too that i've seen work well
[16:40] Howl Yifu: well, rachel, one things this may lead to is smaller scale art.
[16:40] Liz Finistair: I really think on a certain level, the enforcement of payment for art is necessary in order to stimulate more art
[16:40] Howl Yifu: hard to support an enormous rolling stones level concert on this sort of business model
[16:40] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Radiohead made a killing on In Rainbows, offering it for free. Respect = willingness to pay?
[16:40] Minksy Maven: that's true...i thought of that after i wrote it, Rachel. haha. good point
[16:41] Liz Finistair: But Radiohead sold albums before that, right?
[16:41] Layla Afterthought: Freebyrd, that's what I'm talking about
[16:41] Slothrop Charlesworth: but what about the countless "good" bands that have respect but no $
[16:41] Howl Yifu: liz: the question is whether reputtaion or some other symbolic act can balance out the payment, and then allow the money to follow
[16:41] Lindsey Ireman: but radiohead was already in a financially comfortable situation...and could experiement in that way
[16:41] Liz Finistair: Presumably they had a way to buy their instruments and make the albums i n the first place?
[16:41] Bhodi Silverman: Liz... but let's face it, very few of us in the MFA program expect to earn money adequate to live on (or buy dinner with) our writing, and instead plan to teach. Isn't the commodificaiton of "art" almost always just the reselling of the culture to itself?
[16:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Yeah, this is based on reputation that they might have been able to do that
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: Slothrop, they adapt some other way
[16:41] Lindsey Ireman: could lesser known artists trying to gain notoriety do the same?
[16:41] Bhodi Silverman: And isn't most music the same... most musicians don't make a living playing, or writing, music.
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: Saul Williams' free album FLOPPED
[16:41] beth Wasp: i agree with liz---that art should be worth something, but that worth always seems to be in excess of whether our words/art/whatever belongs to us...I'm interested in this question
[16:42] Howl Yifu: well, this also suggests a return to patronage systems, perhaps
[16:42] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, they admitted they were financially able to do such a thing
[16:42] Layla Afterthought: But at the same time, offering albums for free might improve lesser known bands a better chance of becoming well-known.
[16:42] Liz Finistair: They do offer songs for free on the radio
[16:42] Freebyrd Sugarplum: for sure. Small-time bands really bemoaned the fall of napster, etc
[16:42] Layla Afterthought: Upstart-bands often don't have the money to even RELEASE an album... so putting mp3s on the net might be a viable option for building a reputation?
[16:42] Liz Finistair: And you can download songs from myspace pages
[16:43] Bhodi Silverman: Liz... not for free, really, because radio is subsidized either by advertisers or by donations (NPR).
[16:43] Liz Finistair: Yeah, I realized that as soon as I hit enter.
[16:43] Lindsey Ireman: but napster is alive an well in so many ways is it not? bit torrents for example. Vuze is all I use anymore
[16:43] Liz Finistair: And internet costs, too, unless you're continually borrowing a friend's computer
[16:44] Layla Afterthought: Liz: we seem to be secretly paying for everything! Heh.
[16:44] DeSelby Zarco: Here's another model that I thought was extremely interesting (and got my money):
[16:44] MB Vintner: there's something to the fact that books, cds, whatever, can be presented as art objects. things ppl want to own b/c they include interesting design, or a personal touch. so offering content for free will not take away from ppl's need for the art object
[16:44] Liz Finistair: We totally are! This is what bugs me about Lethem. He seems to want to say that there are situations in which we can escape our consumer culture
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: exactly, liz
[16:45] Minksy Maven: that culture would have to change on a large scale, i think
[16:45] MoBecca Podless: theres always the library.
[16:45] MoBecca Podless: free.
[16:45] Howl Yifu: well, it remains consumer culture because of 1) material networks that enable the works to be works
[16:45] DeSelby Zarco: Of Montreal sold their album digitally, but you also got a THING. so for example, for 20 bucks, you get a t-shirt, and the tag on the shirt has the download code.
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: our tax dollars at work
[16:45] Liz Finistair: and how does the library stay open?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: 2) symbolic networks
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: I liked the Of Montreal approach.
[16:45] MoBecca Podless: semantics.
[16:46] DeSelby Zarco: (yeah, and it's a totally awesome shirt. you can't "copy" a shirt yet)
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Especially since you get to pay (pun!) respect, and get a token to show that respect (shirt)
[16:46] Howl Yifu: tony: my friend is in the vegetable orchestra. they play a concert and then cook their instruments and serve them as dinner.
[16:46] Howl Yifu: -- that's the gift economy again.
[16:46] DeSelby Zarco: that's wonderful!
[16:46] Slothrop Charlesworth: woah
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Aww, now I want the shirt!
[16:46] DeSelby Zarco: (did you get the lampshade or something weird?)
[16:46] Liz Finistair: That's interesting, Tony, and I think it says a lot about the fact that we like tangible things--an issue that makes intellectual property so difficult
[16:47] Layla Afterthought: Whoa, I want a link to the veggie orchestra people!
[16:47] Howl Yifu: the limits of consumer culture that liz points to are tied to the limits of bodily cultures and limits / infrastructures of power
[16:47] Minksy Maven: i want to see the vegetable orchestra!
[16:47] DeSelby Zarco: are all their instruments edible?
[16:47] Howl Yifu: i'll send a link about the veggie orchestra. yes, all edxible. they are made out of gourds, etc.
[16:47] Slothrop Charlesworth: edible arrangements? hehe
[16:47] Layla Afterthought: While reading, I was actually thinkging of how cool it would be to have art made from food, have an exhibition where you don't permit photography, and then just let it rot.
[16:47] Liz Finistair: haha!
[16:47] Layla Afterthought: I bet it's been done.
[16:48] Howl Yifu: http://www.gemueseorchester.org/
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: Yay for it being German!
[16:48] Minksy Maven: why couldn't we eat the art instead of let it rot?!
[16:48] Howl Yifu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfYt7vRHuY
[16:48] Howl Yifu: check the youtube.
[16:48] Liz Finistair: because it wouldn't say anything about uselessness and intangibility if we ate it
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: Well, if we let it rot, it'll look different everyday, so that every day people who go to see it see a different thing. =)
[16:49] Howl Yifu: yes, there is a number of food artists. are.
[16:49] DeSelby Zarco: minskey--that would prevent really cool timelapse videos
[16:49] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yes!
[16:49] Minksy Maven: i see. neat idea!
[16:49] Howl Yifu: tony: perhaps talk about the timelapse vid?
[16:49] DeSelby Zarco: i made it up
[16:49] DeSelby Zarco: but i figure if you make really awesome art out of something that will rot
[16:49] Howl Yifu: oh, i was thinnking of the drum/piano guy
[16:50] DeSelby Zarco: set up a camera and speed up the process
[16:50] DeSelby Zarco: OHHH
[16:50] DeSelby Zarco: that's related to a different essay
[16:50] Howl Yifu: that's not timelapse, i know
[16:50] DeSelby Zarco: should we go there?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: well, ok. do we go there?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: ja wohl
[16:50] Liz Finistair: yes. That video was super awesome.
[16:50] DeSelby Zarco: Okay--so regarding Miller and Jordan's essay about editing software, the way taht we can chop sounds into legos
[16:51] DeSelby Zarco: and move them around
[16:51] DeSelby Zarco: this video is a sound/audio version of doing just that
[16:51] DeSelby Zarco: http://voiceinheadphones.blogspot.com/ in case you want to watch
[16:51] Howl Yifu: so, this produces a sound - garagebandish sound of music
[16:52] DeSelby Zarco: sure--and though this isn't brought up in the essay, this relates to the Cage idea that "now that it's so easy..."
[16:52] Howl Yifu: drum beat as lego
[16:52] DeSelby Zarco: (i argue it's not THAT easy) but what do we thikn of this method of music production?
[16:53] Howl Yifu: he treats his time/lifeworld as if in a computer composing tool
[16:53] Howl Yifu: i.e. with frames to work with
[16:53] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, sort of the way Miller treats beats
[16:53] Liz Finistair: I think it's a really awesome example of how traditional "music knowledge" doesn't really apply in the digital world
[16:54] Howl Yifu: and so, produces a "work" and poses the problem of skill or knowledge
[16:54] Layla Afterthought: (RE: Cage and copyright: didn't Cage sue someone for having a track of "silence" on their CD? I'm just bringing it up cause Cage would seem to be someone who'd be all into free sampling...)
[16:54] DeSelby Zarco: so does traditional knowledge die out?
[16:54] Howl Yifu: actually: really tied to the miller question of the archeology of knwoeldge as real/unreal
[16:54] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Great movie
[16:54] Liz Finistair: The guy obviously had to know how music fits together (piano notes put together, beats under that, etc), even if he doesn't have actual training on any traditional instruments
[16:54] Howl Yifu: can't really speak of traditional knowledge but of a kiind of phantasm of ability in working with the video
[16:54] Liz Finistair: traditional knowledge doesn't die, it just gets recontextualized
[16:55] DeSelby Zarco: Good point liz
[16:55] Liz Finistair: really, what's the difference between being able to put a variety of piano notes together on the spot to form a song and being able to mix them together to form a song?
[16:55] DeSelby Zarco: but his body may not have the capabilities that a real drummer/pianist would
[16:55] Howl Yifu: but liz's point shows that skill is shifted now to the compositing/editing technique and not the instrument
[16:55] Liz Finistair: immediacy, I guess
[16:55] Howl Yifu: it's a different instrument
[16:55] Howl Yifu: his body has the capability of working with the technology
[16:56] Howl Yifu: so, kurzweil-style
[16:56] DeSelby Zarco: exactly
[16:56] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I like where his ear is up by the tophat
[16:56] Howl Yifu: the unreal in miller's quote then is the relation of the body to the software rather than to the real of the instruments
[16:56] DeSelby Zarco: (i like that he hits his head with the sticks)
[16:56] Liz Finistair: his brain apparently does, though. So does digital music dissolve the bodily aspect of musical creation?
[16:56] Howl Yifu: no, the body is everywhere throughout it, as alwasys
[16:57] Freebyrd Sugarplum: it depends on what kind of digital music
[16:57] DeSelby Zarco: would that be what oliveros wanted in his software?
[16:57] Howl Yifu: just materialized differently
[16:57] Howl Yifu: tony: yes, I think that is what oliveros wants. she moved from working iwht quote traditional instruments to quite high tech
[16:58] DeSelby Zarco: her! sorry.
[16:58] Howl Yifu: this goes to "no one owns words" I think.
[16:59] Liz Finistair: I wonder how this fits in with what Tony was proposing earlier--supporting artists by going to their concerts
[16:59] Howl Yifu: there is a flexibility between the semantic/semiotic and the bodily expressive
[16:59] Howl Yifu: -- liz, say more
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: (digital music is also easier to support?)
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: (synth: cheaper than touring with instruments)
[17:00] Liz Finistair: There's a lack of presence and a change in time/space for the audience, so in order for him to make money from this type of art, he'd have to sell the digital reproduction of it
[17:00] Howl Yifu: i think it relates to supporting artists because it discovers new bodily potential - cheaper as layla noticed - and new ways these are realized through audiences
[17:00] Liz Finistair: Mostly because the whole thing IS a digital reproduction
[17:01] Howl Yifu: liz: or rather, needs to work out a digital space of performance. might be "live" but somehow repreducing that...
[17:01] Liz Finistair: How could it be live, though? Wouldn't he become the audience at that point? Or would it work like an a/v turntable?
[17:01] Howl Yifu: we could think of various software tools and their potential for this kind of performance/work.
[17:02] Howl Yifu: coould be a dvd with clips of him doing that. we would dj the dvd. i've seen things like that...
[17:02] Howl Yifu: or rather, he would dj the dvd, so live like that.
[17:02] DeSelby Zarco: I'd go to that
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: Me too
[17:02] DeSelby Zarco: whatever that is
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: =)
[17:02] Howl Yifu: might be other ways too.
[17:03] Howl Yifu: tony - do you want to say more, or should we segue to martina?
[17:03] DeSelby Zarco: We can go to martina--i ahve more stuff if we have extra time, but i feel talked for now
[17:03] Howl Yifu: yes, your voice sounds gravely
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: Hehehe
[17:04] Howl Yifu: martina!!!!!!!!!!!
[17:04] MRF Hammerthall: yes!!!!!!!!
[17:04] Bhodi Silverman flicks her lighter and yells "Freebird" at Martina.
[17:04] DeSelby Zarco: jason responds
[17:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yes he does
[17:05] MRF Hammerthall: okay, so I found myself thinking about the issues of class implicit in a lot of the works in Sound Unbound, in particular with Oliveros's piece
[17:05] Bhodi Silverman laughs and smacks herself in the head.
[17:05] Howl Yifu: interesting...
[17:06] MRF Hammerthall: So, I started thinking about her little musician chip and took it to less obscure levels, wondering to what extent the poor are excluded from language and history
[17:06] MRF Hammerthall: due to lack of access to recording technology
[17:06] Howl Yifu: can you remind/summarize the musician chip...
[17:06] MRF Hammerthall: yeah, basically she cites some guy (how scholarly) who believes that people and technology will merge in the future
[17:07] MRF Hammerthall: and that people will be unable to function without this tech
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: jurzweil
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: k
[17:07] MRF Hammerthall: but I think this is already true to some extent, and has been
[17:07] Howl Yifu: how so?
[17:08] Layla Afterthought: (I already feel like I'm one with my iPhone... as demonstrated by the fact that I even used it in our soundscape, heheh)
[17:08] MRF Hammerthall: well, I thought of people without cell phones
[17:08] Howl Yifu: ok, yes. a whole range of personal devices.
[17:08] Bhodi Silverman: There are actually several programs that buy cell phones for the homeless because they have become so indespensible. I can think of three different funding sources for that in Morgantown alonel
[17:09] Layla Afterthought: Whoa.
[17:09] Layla Afterthought: That's.... weird or cool? I can't decide!
[17:09] Howl Yifu: so, that's an exxample attempting to address access... like the $100 (now $200) laptop
[17:09] Howl Yifu: another direction is ubicomp: the general notion that computers should be embedded in the environment rather than carried about or sitting on desktops
[17:09] Bhodi Silverman: I think that, from the poverty worker side of things... there is a pretty strong awareness of how technology can alleviate or aggrevate class distincitons.
[17:09] Liz Finistair: Yeah, I overheard an argument on the bus the other day between a homeless woman and some dude about the fact that the woman had a cell phone but not a job or a house, and the guy was very angry over this.
[17:10] MRF Hammerthall: at the same time, I was thinking about whether a lack of technology could make poorer people more "authentic"
[17:10] Liz Finistair: It said a lot about technological priorities among class levels.
[17:10] MRF Hammerthall: because they aren't bonded to their ipods or xboxes, but grounded in the real world
[17:10] Howl Yifu: mrf: i see, so a kind of refusal, luddite withdrawal?
[17:10] MoBecca Podless: MRF--please explain?...
[17:10] Layla Afterthought: I know some foreign language TAs who deliberately didn't get a cell phone when moving to the States.... they said they were happy to be free of it.
[17:11] MRF Hammerthall: perhaps
[17:11] Howl Yifu: techno-asceticism
[17:11] MRF Hammerthall: I love my tech, but I feel like I become dependent on it, and it would be liberating to be free from it in many ways
[17:11] MRF Hammerthall: like Layla's TAs
[17:11] MRF Hammerthall: like Layla's TAs
[17:11] Howl Yifu: well, why would this be something the underpriveleged would want to assert?
[17:11] Layla Afterthought: ... and it's interesting that they felt like they needed the excuse to move to a different country to get rid of the cell.
[17:12] MRF Hammerthall: well, I'm not sure they're happy to lack access, but they can still live without it
[17:13] Bhodi Silverman: I'm not sure that's true; in fact, I'd argue that access is more important for the underprivelaged.
[17:13] Howl Yifu: from that view, however, shouldn't we all? mean, wouldn't this reinforce lack of privelege?
[17:13] MoBecca Podless: that poorer peole without technology are more authentic is something only an academic would say. to be engaged in the modern world nearly neccessitates access to technology.
[17:13] Howl Yifu: i.e. shouldn't we all throw away our cellphones?
[17:13] Bhodi Silverman: And that most of the revolutionary possibliities in "media free of cost" is it's power to deprivelage knowledge and level class distinctions.
[17:13] Layla Afterthought: True, Martina. For some it's a privilege, for some a necessity
[17:14] Slothrop Charlesworth: Sterling would say that we should at least look closely at how our cell phones are changing, if not throw them away
[17:14] Howl Yifu: -- i think martina makes a genuine point that the underpiveleged are perhaps the only one's for whome this is still a choicei, and they might be where a luddite movement would come from...
[17:14] Layla Afterthought: Wait, I think I was referring to what Bhodi said, heh.
[17:14] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I'm not sure I agree they're the only group for whom this is a choice.
[17:15] Howl Yifu: the binary here is cyborg (we are all necessarily wired and must deal with it) on the on hand, and no-tech on the other, mapped onto class
[17:15] MRF Hammerthall: that's where the tech Oliveros talks about would take us, anyway
[17:15] MoBecca Podless: although--i would prefer not to allow students access to me through email, but its required by the department.
[17:15] Layla Afterthought: It seems that if we're not poor, and we have no cell phone, people automatically assume we are making a statement. At least that's my experience.
[17:16] Bhodi Silverman: But I still argue this is falsley mapped onto class. Last year, I helped a homeless man get a laptop, and he said that for the first time, he could spend all day in a bookstore without anyone asking him to leave, because the laptop gave him an assumed class status.
[17:16] Layla Afterthought: Interesting!
[17:16] DeSelby Zarco: if we get futuristic where Kurzweil goes, maybe it'd be something no inborn in our culture, it'd be free?or mandatory? like career chips in futurama
[17:16] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think a lot of people aren't making a statement. They've just figured out they don't need the technology
[17:16] Bhodi Silverman: The truth is many underprivelaged people are chosing access over things like housing.
[17:17] Layla Afterthought: Yeah, I agree, Freebyrd. I'm saying that a lot of people THINK it's a statement.
[17:17] Howl Yifu: -- true, bhodi, and this is the cyborg side of the binary, suggests that they too are cyborgs.
[17:17] Freebyrd Sugarplum: oh, I agree about that
[17:17] Layla Afterthought: People react to it almost like they do to veganism and the like.
[17:17] DeSelby Zarco: 'me too (a slightly annoying statement)
[17:17] Howl Yifu: martina introduced this in terms of class and access - so i think she wants us to consider this in realtion to the book.
[17:18] Howl Yifu: i.e. how many of these essays deal with the topic?
[17:18] DeSelby Zarco: none in this first chunk, as far as i can tell
[17:18] Howl Yifu: lethem's, for example, is well and good, nice to give your work away, but you can't eat that.
[17:18] Layla Afterthought: (except veggie art)
[17:19] Liz Finistair: I guess the distinction seems to be between language and action.
[17:19] Howl Yifu: in fact, hebdige's essay suggests a lack of revolutionary potential in contemporary music - suggests that the remix era is exciting wihtout being transformational
[17:19] Liz Finistair: Or between language and agency?
[17:19] Slothrop Charlesworth: Saul williams would have us believe we could use language to produce food...poof it's there
[17:19] MoBecca Podless: this book, these conversations, are purely for academics who are financially comfortable and have time and discuss things like copyright.
[17:20] Layla Afterthought: Speaking of Williams: is language really evolving to become more and more able to express the unspeakable?
[17:20] DeSelby Zarco: (you should see the e-mails williams sends, they're so ridiculous)
[17:20] Howl Yifu: hmm. well, most of the authors in the book aren't academics, however. at most, they're mostly marginal academics
[17:20] Freebyrd Sugarplum: See, I was sort of impressed by the spectrum of authors included in the book
[17:20] Lindsey Ireman: never thought of Chuck D as necessarily an academic, but I agree with you still :-)
[17:20] Howl Yifu: yes, williams is goofy.
[17:20] Rachel Geraln: Layla: what about Prince? and his unspeakable name ?
[17:20] Layla Afterthought: Hahahaha!
[17:21] MoBecca Podless: no--but do you see a WIC mom carrying this book under her arm?
[17:21] Layla Afterthought: I think Prince might support my opinion that maybe these days we have MORE unspeakable things than before.
[17:21] Howl Yifu: so, tough to say. steve reich, for example, may be famous and probably rich but spent plenty of time poor eating nothing but tomato soup.
[17:21] Rachel Geraln: good point
[17:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but I guess by spectrum I mean academics and nonacademics. not class-based
[17:21] Liz Finistair: regardless of whether they're academics, though, they do have access to things that make it possible for them to be published in a book like this
[17:21] Lindsey Ireman: wasn't his unspeakable name the result of copyright arguments? It was a rebellion against his label somehow wasn't it? Am i making that up (I seem to be doing that tonight)
[17:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I like the Saul Williams Idea because of its connection to Imagination as the beginning of creativity. I t reminds me of that scene from Hook
[17:21] Layla Afterthought: I totally don't remember the significance of the Symbol.
[17:22] Layla Afterthought: I'm a shame to my generation.
[17:22] Howl Yifu: well, the question then might be how does remix culture and so on relate at all to problems of access and freedom.
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I guess having access to the remix technology might be a problem for some
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: any poor slob can write
[17:23] Howl Yifu: -- > it's worth trying to break down binaries of academics / other culture.
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but not everyone can afford garage band
[17:23] DeSelby Zarco: or the time to learn it
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: totally
[17:23] Layla Afterthought: Ooh, if we make laptops affordable to the poor, how long until they'll be able to create works of art?
[17:23] Howl Yifu: not do non-academics read this book, but does the book say anything beyond academic discourse?
[17:24] DeSelby Zarco: Howl what do you mean exactly?
[17:24] Howl Yifu: --- well, poor and rich make art everywhere already, and its a question of circulating it
[17:24] Freebyrd Sugarplum: not long, layla. But will they be behind the artistic curve (if there is indeed such a thing)?
[17:25] Howl Yifu: tony: i want to push beyond the question of whether the book is useful based on who wrote it or reads it
[17:25] Liz Finistair: A lot of the arguments seem to be going for a grassroots up approach to new and experimental art, which is strange in conjunction with the book itself
[17:25] Layla Afterthought: Who knows, Freebyrd... they might have a perspective on things "we" don't?
[17:25] MoBecca Podless: thatmakes me think of basquiat. he perpetuated this persona of an abused, homeless artist. but really he come from sucessful middle class family.
[17:25] Freebyrd Sugarplum: true dat.
[17:26] Layla Afterthought: MoBecca.... super-rich rappers taking about life in the streets?
[17:26] DeSelby Zarco: I think ti's a testament of the writers of the essays
[17:26] DeSelby Zarco: these aren't your Kaja silvermans
[17:26] MoBecca Podless: yep
[17:26] DeSelby Zarco: these are sci-fi writers, and novelists, and rappers, and poets
[17:26] Howl Yifu: - i do think some of these essays deal with class in different ways.
[17:26] Liz Finistair: but at what point does their work become the object we need to recontextualize into a thing?
[17:27] Howl Yifu: the essay on "easy listening" is about class and listening habit (admitedly past the section we read for today)
[17:27] DeSelby Zarco: the Davis one, about dub
[17:27] Minksy Maven: would art become a "thing" as soon as someone wants money for it?
[17:27] Howl Yifu: and the hebdige esssay is about a notion of a revolutionary discourse on public television that would address class concerns
[17:27] Slothrop Charlesworth: It's a catch-22 because if these writers weren't reasonably known (affluent) then it likely wouldn't be available for purchase
[17:27] Liz Finistair: it's almost as though there's a class-curve that has to happen: be poor and make experimental art that changes a lot of things, then get popular, then write about being poor and making experimental art
[17:28] Layla Afterthought: Yeah...
[17:28] Kathereene Kahanamoku: people do want money for art--yeah--so does that mean it is purely a commodity
[17:28] Layla Afterthought: ... and when does it stop being authentic?
[17:28] MRF Hammerthall: Slothrop is getting at the historical implications that I wanted to talk about. If only the affluent are published/recorded, are the poor silenced?
[17:28] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Well--in the music industry, if an artist doesn't evolve or grow overtime they become obsolete
[17:29] Howl Yifu: mrf: sure. but isn't this book about the opposite of that/
[17:29] Layla Afterthought: Poor being silenced: it depends on how marketable their poverty is.
[17:29] Liz Finistair: Or was it ever authentic in the first place? That's what I got out of Lethem's article: there is no authenticity, only stuff building on top of other stuff with never-ending traces
[17:29] Layla Afterthought: Good question, Liz...
[17:30] Layla Afterthought: depends on what we mean by authentic, I suppose
[17:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I can't think of any thing impovershed that is trendy right now
[17:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: except maybe stomp
[17:30] Liz Finistair: saving money because of our crappy economy is super tendy
[17:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: is supposed to look urban
[17:30] Liz Finistair: trendy*
[17:31] Liz Finistair: being poor has become the subject of every commercial
[17:31] Layla Afterthought: yep
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: "we'll give you a bailout... on TASTE"
[17:31] Howl Yifu: martina is pushing for a limit to the notion of the commercialization of poverty
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: (or something like that)
[17:31] Liz Finistair: haha!
[17:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: commercials have alwaysbeen about saving money
[17:31] Layla Afterthought: poor, "ethnic" .... it all can (and has been) commercialized.
[17:32] Kathereene Kahanamoku: but around school students won't wear or advocate anything that's inexpensive
[17:32] Howl Yifu: i.e. the position like adorno or benjamin that all history is built on the silencing of multitudes.
[17:32] MB Vintner: well, now more than ever the economy and the state of the economy has become a marketing strategy
[17:32] Howl Yifu: the question, it seems to me, in terms of this book, is whether this sort of approach to sound/music can address that -
[17:32] Howl Yifu: i.e. by giving voice through technology to the silenced (for example)
[17:33] MRF Hammerthall: that's what I wonder...
[17:33] Layla Afterthought: Well, the commericals are aimed more at the "kind of poor".... and the "really really poor" get silenced?
[17:33] Howl Yifu: or if this remains outside the scope of publication per se,
[17:33] Howl Yifu: and then what?
[17:33] Layla Afterthought: (too tired for better language)
[17:33] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, they're still aimed at the kind of poor people who can afford to buy stuff
[17:33] Howl Yifu: one answer is the philosophical answer of someone like adorno (again) of continual mourning of this silence
[17:33] Layla Afterthought: Yeah
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: .... whiole pretending that the poor are taken into consideration
[17:34] Bhodi Silverman: All roads lead to Adorno.
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: while*
[17:34] Howl Yifu: anohter answer is a turn to activism or action, though again I think some of the essays in here point that way (the south africa essay as well)
[17:35] Howl Yifu: since "sound unbound" is subtitled "sampling digital music and culture" the question can be reformulated: are the poor or silenced part of what is sampled? is poverty samplable? or is it alwasy a kind of horror beyond sampling
[17:35] Howl Yifu: horror is the wrrong word here...
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: if poverty is sampled, it's commercialized.
[17:36] Lindsey Ireman: "can the subaltern speak" sort of question?
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: and exploited?
[17:36] MRF Hammerthall: well, the poor aren't doing much sampling, so it's the media-friendly version of poverty that gets sampled
[17:36] Liz Finistair: how do you sample something that doesn't have a voice?
[17:36] Howl Yifu: martina: well, that's the question. are the poor sampling or not?
[17:37] MRF Hammerthall: that's what I want to know.
[17:37] MB Vintner: sampling survival.
[17:37] Minksy Maven: could we sample Silence?
[17:37] Howl Yifu: are people in south boston sampling - yes, i'd say
[17:37] beth Wasp: not if tbut bearing witness is a kind of sampling...and that can be done even when those observed do not have a voice
[17:37] Liz Finistair: linguistically, they'd have to be, which is another of Lethem's points
[17:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think poverty is sampled from all the time in order to differentiate from it
[17:37] Howl Yifu: but i take the cybburger view
[17:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and create a contrast with the desired state of things
[17:37] Howl Yifu: lindsey: yes, it seems to me that martina's question is a version of the subaltern question
[17:38] Howl Yifu: it is 240am in austria.
[17:38] Liz Finistair: oy
[17:38] Howl Yifu: vey
[17:38] DeSelby Zarco: is that the cue?
[17:38] Howl Yifu: well.
[17:38] Slothrop Charlesworth: he's fading fast!
[17:38] Howl Yifu: These are good questions and discussion, but let's read the rest of the book for next week and see where we get?
[17:39] Bhodi Silverman: Good night!
[17:39] Layla Afterthought: sounds good
[17:39] Howl Yifu: One thing - because I cut out at one point i didn't get the beginning of the chat text.
[17:39] DeSelby Zarco: good deal
[17:39] Howl Yifu: tony, can you cut and paste the whole thing?
[17:39] DeSelby Zarco: yeah... to my blog?
[17:39] Howl Yifu: open local chat window, put cursor at the top, scroll to the bottom, shift and select,
[17:39] Howl Yifu: cut and paste.
[17:39] DeSelby Zarco: yeah. paste to...?